Talk:Myst (Series)
Title/Name Change I suggest changing this page to Myst (franchise), to work better with the idea of the two spin-off series(Uru and books) within the Myst franchise. Wisnoskij (talk) 02:22, May 2, 2013 (UTC) :Jns4eva? What do you think? I prefer keeping it as-is, as I think they can all be considered part of the same series. ~~ Hi878 [[User talk:Hi878|(Come shout at me!)]] 04:03, May 2, 2013 (UTC) :I'd have to agree with you that the page remains Myst (series). Both Uru and Myst V are official parts of the series, whether they continue Atrus's story or delve into the history of D'ni. As far as the books go, they actually came about from all the unused backstory they wrote for Myst, so they're in the same boat. Jns4eva (talk) 09:42, May 2, 2013 (UTC) :Are we sure that everyone understands the word "series" here? I have heard arguments that apply to considering them all in the same franchise, and of course they are all in the franchise/universe. But series is a specific word and it is not just "related works" If Uru and the books were all in the same series then the page Myst (series) would be fundamentally the same as Myst Timeline. All the series elements would need to be ordered and numbered into one big list. Myst would be "Myst 3", Myst IV would be "Myst 7". I do not understand how anyone would think that would be better than separating it into story arcs. Note: right now the content of this page is ordered as Myst the franchise, and the title contradicts the content; IMHO. Wisnoskij (talk) 13:26, May 2, 2013 (UTC) :::Yes, I am aware that series is not the same as franchise. But you're missing the point we're making: it would not be a benefit to the wiki to separate the article into several different articles and that it can be argued that they're part of the same series. Not only that, but the Myst series article, which lists the games and books where most of this information comes from, is certainly not the same as the Timeline article, which lists events in said games and books in chronological order. Yes, Myst is technically Myst III but that was the intention of Cyan, as the books were written to help you better understand the events of Myst and Riven and gives you the backstory necessary to understand the mentality of the characters in the Myst games (certainly, without reading the first two books, you'd have no idea why Gehn is villainous other than 'because Atrus said so'). The books further describe Atrus's story (which I believe is what you're saying is the key story arc of the first four games) such as meeting Catherine, how Gehn became twisted and meeting with D'ni survivors to set up the events of Myst III. Uru can be part of the series as well, as it takes place after Myst IV and is concerned with Yeesha's life after learning The Art and discovering the Bahro and even concludes story set up in Riven (such as where the starry fissure ends up). Yes, Atrus might not be in it (other than notes from him found in The Cleft), but his daughter is and is just as much about her and her discoveries (which continues Atrus's family story arc) as it is about the D'ni. :::You also mention that Uru and Myst V can't be considered part of the same series due to the fact that you're not playing as The Stranger. However, I can't help but feel as though that's not a good point. Would you consider Half Life: Blue Shift part of a different series that Half Life, due to the fact that you play as Barney and not Gordon? :::We're not saying what you're saying is invalid. What we're saying is that it can be argued that they're all in the same series, that they all share the same story arc (How D'ni collapsed, it's survivors and it's history) and that there's really no benefit from splitting it up (which I feel would confuse others). This may deserve mention on each game page (such as mentioning some fans believe that Uru is a spin off that is not part of the same series), but at this time I don't think it warrants renaming the page to split it up into smaller ones, as this is more a matter of opinion more than fact. I'd like to see what Vector E. Cramp has to say (as they've been active here recently too), but at the moment I'd have to agree with Hi878 and say no to renaming it. I hope this doesn't discourage you from editing (as you're been very helpful to the wiki and I'd like to see more of you around). Jns4eva (talk) 19:19, May 2, 2013 (UTC) :::::Well that is fair, but I never said anything about making separate pages (just renaming this one). It is the word franchise that allows you to group everything Myst related into one page, and the word series that technically would leave somethings out (comic books, movie, whatever). It is interesting looking at how Wikipedia does it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myst_(series)), The page is named "series" but in the article it self they use "Franchise" most of the time, and in all the prominent positions. Wisnoskij (talk) 19:56, May 2, 2013 (UTC) Myst 5: End of Ages I don't suppose I have any chance of convincing anyone that "Myst" 5 is better categorised within the Uru spin-off series? And that it is likely that it was named Myst 5 for financial reasons more than anything else? In my mind, anyway, it most definitely does. The Myst quadrilogy is about Atrus, his family, and most of all his two sons and their betrayal. This story arc is completed with the end of the 4th game. The Stranger also sees his last game in Myst 4, and how can you have a proper Myst game without you playing as him. Instead you play as Dr.Watson, D'ni historian extraordinary and you are firmly in (what I like to call) the D'ni expanded universe that includes and indeed focusses on the Bahro. Uru continues this with loads of Watson and even more Bahro. Additionally, chronologically Myst 5 is a whole lot closer to uru then Myst 1-4. Wisnoskij (talk) 02:22, May 2, 2013 (UTC) :To be honest, I feel as though Myst and Uru are part of the same series. While Uru and Myst 5 may not have a lot to do with Atrus, it does have a lot to do with his past (the D'ni) and his future (Yeesha) and explains more about D'ni culture, which I feel is the main series undertone. While the games do tend to focus on Atrus and his family more or less, I can't help but feel this is just part of the gameplay aspect that Richard A. Watson mentioned in his e-mail and that the series as a whole was made to explain the past, present and future of the D'ni civilization (otherwise there would be no D'ni language, no elaborate backstories, etc. though obviously Myst III isn't included in that statement so much). Since Uru does explain more about the D'ni and also follows a grown up Yeesha, it's my belief that Uru should be considered part of the franchise (along with Myst V, due to their similarities). :Not only that, but the three books explain Atrus's history (how D'ni fell and corrupted his father, how Atrus grew up and learned the Art and how Atrus met survivors of D'ni), so I feel that they're also a major part of the backstory (Riven almost expects you to have read the Book of Atrus to understand what's going on) and not necessarily part of a side series or extended series. :However, if it helps the Wiki and the readers better understand both sides (such as the article on Trap Books explaining both the game view and RAWA's view), it wouldn't be such a big deal so long as it's written neutrally (perhaps adding a note to the Uru series page that explains many fans separate it from the main series while others don't). Yes, I believe that there could be a D'ni expanded universe, but I also believe that there's more to the series than Atrus and his family (which can be traced back even as far as the original Myst, which explains about the D'ni ever so slightly), which is why I feel that Uru and Myst V are considered part of the series. However, I'll abstain to see how others feel about this. Jns4eva (talk) 01:21, May 2, 2013 (UTC) ::I would agree that Myst V and Uru should be considered part of the main series. A note that many fans separate them might be useful, but I think that we should consider them all as part of the series, as officially, they are. ~~ Hi878 [[User talk:Hi878|(Come shout at me!)]] 04:07, May 2, 2013 (UTC) :::OK, but officially Uru is considered a spin-off, isn't it? "Rand Miller: Myst Online is more a spin-off than a sequel." Myst Online being Uru without the multiplayer removed. Wisnoskij (talk) 20:02, May 2, 2013 (UTC) ::::Hm... It seems to me like it wouldn't matter too much. I don't know. Jns4eva, what do you think? ~~ Hi878 [[User talk:Hi878|(Come shout at me!)]] 15:33, May 7, 2013 (UTC) :::::In my opinion, we already have a page for the Uru Series and a mention on the Uru page itself that it's considered to be a spin off to some. To me, that's as much as we need to focus on the topic as it wouldn't be beneficial to the wiki and is arguably against the NPOV policy that wiki enforces. Officially, Cyan intended Uru and Myst V to be part of the Myst series. If Uru was truly not part of it, they would have simply named it Uru instead of Uru: Ages Beyond Myst and left Yeesha out altogether. Not only that, but Myst Island's inclusion in the game, The Cleft where Atrus grew up being the dump point for Riven and Myst's starry cleft and several other pieces of information that suggest Uru taking place shortly after the Myst games (and in the same timeline) is further confirmation that they truly intended this to be a follow up to the Myst games (placing them in the same series). The same could be said for Myst V, which if it wasn't to be included in the series would have been named otherwise and it's also a follow up of the events of the books (and arguably Myst III). If I recall correctly, Rand Miller also mentioned Uru when fans talked about a Myst VI, but I can't quite remember the details. Until Cyan officially says "Uru is not part of the Myst series and is without a doubt a spin off", we have to go with the evidence the games present us and there's enough evidence that suggests the two are part of the series. :::::I'm not saying you can't have an opinion. I'm not saying your opinion is wrong. I'm not even saying that it CAN'T be a spin off. What I'm saying is that at this point, it's your opinion (fans believe it's a spin off) when we need a fact (Cyan says outright it's a spin off and not part of the series) to change it as you suggest. And since, at the moment, there's no solid evidence to suggest it isn't part of the same series (where there's enough evidence in the games to suggest it is), we have to assume that it being a spin off is opinion. Opinions deserve mention on a wiki (as long as they're written neutrally) so that anyone who reads it can tell there is two sides to the story. That's why there's mention of it in the Uru article.. If you can provide a solid reference that says with certainty that Cyan intended them to be spin offs (like you did with the excellent article from RAWA about linking books), then that would be more powerful evidence than what we have and will change the articles for sure. But Rand Miller saying it's more of a spin off than a sequel isn't solid evidence, as one could take that to mean it's both (or that Rand wasn't too sure, as he didn't come out and say no, it's a spin off). You have a right to your opinion, I'm not trying to change it. I'm just saying that we need hard evidence or it's a violation of NPOV. Jns4eva (talk) 00:50, May 8, 2013 (UTC) :::::::Collaboration and consensus can be annoying, lol. I think we understand words differently, I do not really understand what you think is lacking in the Miller quote. I am not asking for any changes at all, but simply believe that OFFICIALLY Uru is recognized as a spin-off game/series. I would say the most important reason why it is, is because Uru is set in a universe where the Myst games and Cyan and real, and explains why some of the stuff in the Myst series is wrong and where some artistic license is taken. According to Uru, Myst is historically based fiction. But here is another Rand Miller quote, if it will do any good. "There are things that will resonate and things that are different. Uru is a spin-off from the Myst storyline. The family from the original storyline had a very definite beginning and end interacting with this amazing culture. What was always left open was what the culture was. What was that culture? How did they have books of such power? How did that affect them? Can I go there? In many ways, when we decided to do Uru, we were throwing back the curtain that kept things hidden for so long. Let's not do this in the past. Let's not tell a story that's already been told. Let's make it now. This is what would happen if the story was absolutely true, an underground empire was there just as the story laid it out. Now you can get there and find that things are still alive and things are still happening. Instead of being portrayed as history, you're part of what happens." - (http://ca.ign.com/articles/2006/11/28/myst-online) Wisnoskij (talk) 02:34, May 8, 2013 (UTC) ::::::::Ha, I appreciate your honesty. It can be hard to collaborate sometimes, but I feel that it's best to get everyone's opinions, which is why I'm glad this wiki has someone like you Wisnoskij (who sees things differently and can offer a different side). But to reply to your statement, the part I didn't find compelling about the first quote was "is more of a spin off than a sequel". To me, this implies that it's somewhere in-between and not truly a sequel or a spin off. ::::::::One thing I have to ask: What are you trying to accomplish with this? I appreciate you explaining your side, but we could be here for a while if we simply try and sway the other to their side. I understand you believe that it's a spin off, but like I mentioned above, I personally believe that it's still a continuation of the storyline. I'm not saying you're wrong or there's anything wrong with your evidence or even that your points are invalid. I even appreciate your posting additional evidence for your beliefs and feel it's really strong evidence. But at the same time, I feel it's always been the intent of Cyan to have these games take place in the real world (otherwise the backstory of Ri'neref introduced in the books and Myst would not be about Earth). I also believe there's equally strong evidence within Uru itself. Uru has it's own series page and a note saying it's a spin off. Thanks for your opinion, but I have to ask where this is going if you're not suggesting changes. Thanks again for your (again) informative post that leads to more great info (which as a fan, I can't help but eat up). Jns4eva (talk) 02:27, May 8, 2013 (UTC) ::::::::::This discussion, for me at least, has long since left behind any point other than for discussions sake. I was just trying to fix what I believed was an erroneous belief: That Cyan had not OFFICIALLY called Uru a Spin-Off, and not a sequel. Wisnoskij (talk) 02:34, May 8, 2013 (UTC) :::::::::::Point noted. Thank you. Jns4eva (talk) 03:09, May 8, 2013 (UTC) ::::::::::::This conversation seems to be going nowhere. I suggest we just leave it for a while. ~~ Hi878 [[User talk:Hi878|(Come shout at me!)]] 16:52, May 10, 2013 (UTC)